The argument fanboys have at every convention, ever

[laceblade]

For n00bs to the anime scene: "Shounen" (or shonen) manga is that which is marketed toward boys. The girls are often voluptuous and useless and kidnapped, and the protagonist boys have EPIC ANGST that must be overcome. This angst is always overcome by fighting, be it ninja-style or ghost-killing style. The protagonist's goal is usually to level up a lot and generally pwn n00bs.

Is the separation of shoujo and shounen manga sexist? This should be the topic of another post.

Anyway, so I'm only 3 volumes into Bleach, but I'm ready to list the reasons why it's better than Naruto (of which I read ~32 volumes):

-- The narrative pacing is actual...narrative pacing.
-- Girls do things other than whine about Sasuke
-- It's a personal preference, but I like the art style more
-- A single fight does not take 6 volumes to reach its conclusion
-- Characters do not spend entire fights explaining the flow of their chakra, or explaining in great detail how their SEKRIT ULTIMATE MOVE works. I like this. I don't care about the schemantics behind somebody's bad-ass fight move. I care about who gets hit, who hit them, how cool it looks, and who dies afterward.
-- It's actually funny, when it tries to be funny
-- The characterization that protagonist Ichigo gets in volume 3 makes me care about him a lot more than I ever cared about the protagonist of Naruto.


Of course, all these things could soon change.

Feel free to use the comments to weigh in on how you feel about Bleach v. Naruto.

Comments

[tigrin.livejournal.com]

You will change your mind about Bleach after the first arc. Trust me. The newer chapters of Naruto are actually better than Bleach IMHO, because Bleach has settled into a rut of long fights between minor characters that no one cares about.

[mystickeeper.livejournal.com]

Oh no!

That is really sad. Frickin' a, now I'm going to have to start reading Naruto again, :(

Maybe I'll read 30 volumes of Bleach first, so that they're even.

What sad news!

[tigrin.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it makes me kind of sad because I felt the same way about Bleach as you do when I was first reading it, and I've completely changed my mind since then. The first couple of arcs are just Ichigo attempting to rescue some helpless girl... actually I think the second one is still going, he hasn't rescued her yet... I don't even know what's going on anymore.

Naruto actually interests me more lately because they're actually developing the characters a bit and resolving things I never thought they'd resolve (such as Sasuke vs. Itachi! gasp). I haven't even seen the main characters in Bleach for weeks, possibly months now.

[dimensionwitch.livejournal.com]

Epic ninja series are too epic for me. I can't stand super long shounen series with no resolution, so I could never get into either.

[mystickeeper.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I read piles and piles of shoujo, so I'm trying to take baby steps into appreciating shounen stuff.

I did like *some* things about Naruto, but....not many, lol. At tigrin's recommendation, maybe I'll keep trying....

[sir-hellsing.livejournal.com]

I hope you don't mind I comment here randomly, I was checking out hellsing' fl and this post showed up. Bleach commits every shounen sin after one of the female protagonist is taken for Ichigo to rescue. :/

Shounen is a tiny sexist, but shoujo is too against boys sometimes (they act as token romantic interest UNLESS they are a shounen-ai-friendly series).

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Really? The problem I have with a lot of shoujo is that so much of it eventually seems to be completely overtaken by the hero's (sometimes heroes') narrative, with the heroine almost a bystander in her story.

[britrock37.livejournal.com]

I completely agree with this. I also feel like often times in shoujo manga, the girls are STILL portrayed as helpless and we're supposed to cheer for the nice guy, who ultimately never wins because masculine hero guy who is OBVIOUSLY the worse choice comes in and convinces the girl he can save her.

Almost as equally sexist. Only with less ninja/robot fighting. And the boys are sometimes still as angsty.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Off the top of my head, the only shoujo I've read from beginning to end (that was more than one or two volumes) where it didn't let me down by eventually making it the guy's story are Basara (epically angsty alpha hero, but he never takes over her story, and in the end, it's still very much her story) W Juliet (fluffy romcom that stays equally focused on the 2 leads) and Night of the Beasts (dark romance where the heoine's boyfriend-and distant cousin-is possessed by a demon who wants to destroy their family). Magic Knight Rayearth almost qualified, but the ending there almost felt like it was more about Eagle than about Hikaru.

[sir-hellsing.livejournal.com]

Magic Knight Rayearth is one of those stories I prefer its Anime version.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Hmm. That's interesting, actually. When I was asking which I should go with before reading, most told me they didn't even finish the second season.

[sir-hellsing.livejournal.com]

Really? I think the second season is superior to the manga version. Manga was just fluffy and not engaging enough? CLAMP wrote the second season too, they wanted to make it darker. Hikaru's turmoil IS portrayed more and the rival/enemy are women. Lantis' a touch more useless at the end (token male love interest syndrome) but I feel the girls were stronger, anime wise.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

The thing about the manga is that it was good, but really, really sparse. It was doing all the plot points but rarely stopping to develop anything.

[sir-hellsing.livejournal.com]

Exactly. It felt so bland. I found the second season of MKR absolutely powerful and made me tearup in the end. Hikaru's far more mature, flawed and selfish, more human and shows more layers that isn't naïve determinate genki tomboy girl.

[sir-hellsing.livejournal.com]

It depends which shoujo. Most I've watched have the token boyfriend/li who is useful for like the beginning before getting himself kidnapped/written off/brainwashed/etc.

Those I mean focused on women protagonist because there ARE those who are focused on boys, too.

There are shounen focused on women too and men are even more useless there (Claymore?).

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Mybe it's just because I mostly only read licensed manga, and most of what comes out here ends up dominated by the male, shounen or shoujo.

The men in Claymore get to be more useful that most girls do in shounen.

The thing of it is that it seems that it's subconsciously considered more "natural" for a narrative to focus, so in general, people notice more when it isn't focused on a male than when it isn't focused on a female, and the male-to-female shift is noticed and picked apart, but the female-to-male shift is the norm.

[sir-hellsing.livejournal.com]

You're right on this. *coughs*Hellsing atm focused on girls* Although Alucard never counted as a "man" 100% when he can and DOES turn into loli.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I need to start reading Hellsing. Vampire stories don't do much for me in general, but I've heard good things about Hellsing.

[sir-hellsing.livejournal.com]

Hellsing has many, many flaws (Hirano is completely forgetful about continuity) but in the female character department, it certainly has an edge to many other Manga. I feel that OVA version didn't give them justice (the designer is UNABLE to draw Integra and decides to make Seras too fanservice like) while TV series, even with focus on Seras, didn't portray their strength at fullest because of the many changes.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I've been reading Clamp, Kaori Yuki and You Higuri all this year. I'm getting used to continuity being forgetten.

[sir-hellsing.livejournal.com]

WOO. AS icon. *g*

The sunrise happens FOUR times in the same day forgotten continuity we're talking about.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

*uses other AS icon*

*Needs Kira/Alexiel icon. And Belial/Universe.*

Can you at least keep track of who's dead, who's alive, and who'se really someone else?

[sir-hellsing.livejournal.com]

I ONLY HAVE ONE. =( I used to have a lot of Kira&Lucifer/Alexiel plus Belial, Belial/Kurai ones when I had 100 slots. *sniffs*

Yes. BEWARE ABOUT STUPID PLOTTWISTS involving Major, Anderson and Walter. At least Integra's consistently hot and Pip&Seras are adorable together?

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

*looks at profile*

I do not understand! How do people live with only 6 icon slots?

stop having so many of my fandoms and pairings

[sir-hellsing.livejournal.com]

I survived and I'm cheap. =(

Wee. Really?

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I'm cheap too, but I consider icons to be an essential part of life!

Yeah, pretty much. Fandoms at least. I don't do shipping/pairings enough for more than some canon overlapping...

[mystickeeper.livejournal.com]

OMF HELLSING!

It's like crack, but dripping with blood. Also, bullets.

[dimensionwitch.livejournal.com]

And guts.

[mystickeeper.livejournal.com]

I don't mind at all! I feel like I've seen your name around before, probably at hellsing.

My point about the sexism of shounen/shoujo manga was more pointing out the sexism in marketing completely different series toward boys and girls, when in fact many boys like shoujo manga, and many girls like shounen manga.

I agree that sometimes boys in shoujo manga can be very 2-D, but I think that's pretty true of how they portray some of the girls, as well (like a boy-crazy girl whose only flaw is clumsiness, or something).

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Bleach does eventually sink into longer fights, but remain infinitely superior to Naruto in every way.

Though, a lot of it is that the mangaka actually likes more than 2 characters, especially the girls. Ichigo is still the lead, but it's much more ensemble, and did I mention that Tite Kubo actually treats the female characters as worthy entities, not necessary evils there to make a few guys look good?

[takumashii.livejournal.com]

Shounen Jump is a weekly, and I think the incredible time pressure that involves - like, 20 or 30 pages scripted, drawn, inked, etc, every week!? - dooms even the best mangaka to Endless Epic Fights, especially when writer's block hits. The good shounen/seinen manga - they're out there! - are more likely to be found in the monthly magazines. (Lately I'm grooving on Piano no Mori, The Piano Forest.)

[mystickeeper.livejournal.com]

OMG, is Piano no Mori a manga?! I thought it was only a movie!

[takumashii.livejournal.com]

It IS, although as far as I know it hasn't been professionally translated. (There surely are scanlations out there, right?) I think they've even started issuing special editions of the manga with piano CDs included.

[lavendersleeves.livejournal.com]

20 to 30? In a weekly comic? Try 14-17, with a lot of support staff. Those folks are rolling in money. Well, the publishers are, anyway.

[britrock37.livejournal.com]

I will say....I don't really like Bleach that much.....especially after it's first story arc. In fact, I actually enjoyed it at first, and then I had to stop reading it.

HOWEVER! I like it infinitely better than Naruto. The whole "whining about Sasuke" thing drives me crazy, for one thing...and really...I just found it stupid all around. You're right...at least Bleach has what seems to be some semblance of a story. Plus the female characters (Orihime and Rukia--well, Rukia at the beginning) actually have personality and can hold their own in a fight. I REALLY like Orihime. She's one of the main reasons I can actually deal with Bleach in a lot of regards. I've not gotten too far into the second arc (and I read like 4 volumes of Naruto before deciding that it could go to hell), so I'm not the most credible source, but if I were picking, Bleach is definitely the better of two pretty bad series that everyone seems to love.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I think Orihime is one of the better "useless damsel in distress turns contributing party" characters in shounen. The interesting thing about her "damsel in distress" arc is that (1) she chose to become a captive to save her friends (2) she did this knowing that, if the opportunity presented itself, her power would allow her to completely destroy the villain's plans, ands that's the real reason she became a captive. Rukia's damsel in distress arc was also because it was the only way to save Ichigo at the time, but she had no plan. And even though they and the other female characters do still get sidelined in favor of the males, they're also in various positions of power and influence. (The character everyone is scared of un Unohana, a female captain, but we don't know why yet. Just that a look from her can make anyone behave.)

[lavendersleeves.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't say that the distinction is any more sexist than saying that the Baby Sitter's Club is geared toward girls, or that Playboy is aimed at men. There are deserters in every camp; if you look at junior high school students, I think you'll find that the Shounen readers tend to be girls, whereas the boys (lately) seem to prefer sports-related comics, which are a separate genre.

Personally, I think that fans abroad misunderstand the labeling of manga and genre. Like in any media, the publisher has a lot more to do with the collection than, say, what genre the magazine spine attributes itself to. In the same way that Pixar has very specific guidelines that it will use to determine which stories they will animate and which they won't, Jump (Naruto, Bleach, D. Grayman), Shounen Sunday (Conan, Inu Yasha) and Young King Ours (Trigun, Hellsing) publish entirely different kinds of stories and have different, eh, what's-it's. Creeds, mottos, whatever. (Jump's motto is to publish hopeful adventure stories about young men. How they ended up with Death Note is entirely beyond me).

[britrock37.livejournal.com]

Where does Rosario + Vampire end up as a hopeful adventure story about a young man???

But I do agree with you that it's marketing. The publishers make a choice in what they're going to publish.....it's not a hard-and-fast system wherein we ONLY read within what's marketed for our gender.

I guess a similar thing happens here in the US with Young Adult fiction vs. Adult fiction. Some of the best books I've read in my adult life have been shelved in "young adult" because someone at the publishing company made the decision to call it "young adult". That doesn't mean adults won't ALSO enjoy the book.